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	<title>Comments on: Which Is More Effective In A Real Street Fight: Fist Or Palm Heel?</title>
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	<description>Street Fight Close Quarters Combat Tactics</description>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://www.closequarterscombat.com/blog/street-fight-fist-or-palm-heel/comment-page-2/#comment-1039</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:14:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.closequarterscombat.com/blog/?p=38#comment-1039</guid>
		<description>Hey Jeff, 

  I have about 3 years Goju Karate training, 5 years Boxing, a highschool wrestling career, 3 years Muay Thai and BJJ, and was a Brown Belt MCMAP instructor while serving as an infantry rifleman in the U.S.M.C. Sorry for being a little late on this post, but I would like to post my theory on the issue based on my experience in styles which required a lot of live action sparring. 

  It is my personal opinion and experience that in an actual &quot;brawl&quot;, i.e. two or more guys slugging away at each other, open hand strikes are of limited value. I say this because open hand strikes do require a great deal of precision to land effectively. Or rather they seem to be super effective when they land where they need to go, and incredibly ineffective when they miss. In my experience a palm heel uppercut for example only does incredibly substantial damage when it lands dead on the chin or nose, whereas a traditional uppercut does a good amount of damage anywhere below the forehead(some places obviously more than others). Punches seem to have more leeway. 

 Furthermore open hand strikes require different muscle groups than a closed hand strike, and thus throw off a certain amount of momentum that I want in my combinations, and most open hand strikes telegraph terribly in combos. While I believe a well place open hand strike is a &quot;one hitter quitter&quot; so to speak, I feel aggressive combination punches, hammerfists, elbows, knees, and kicks yield consistently better results, are more instinctive, and have a better flow. They also don&#039;t require the same degree of absolute accuracy to be effective. Something incredibly hard under the influence of an adrenaline dump against a moving, resisting opponent.

 That being said, I am not at all an opponent of open hand strikes, quite the opposite in fact. We all know MMA and modern H2H styles are both well rounded in the freestanding, clinch, and ground phases of combat. But I feel that there is a stage that is often neglected in most martial arts, including TMA styles, MMA styles, and to a lesser degree H2H styles. That is the preemptive phase. This is where open hand strikes really shine I feel.

 First of all you are probably not experiencing a major adrenaline dump at that moment so your stikes are going to be more accurate and less instinctive. Second of all, the aggressor will not be as active in moving and defending, this will further help the accuracy and completion of technique. Third, &quot;opening&quot; with an well placed open hand strike may end the confrontation without the need for the &quot;brawling&quot; phases due to the effectiveness of a well placed open hand strike. And finally if you are throwing the first strike, though you may actually be right legally, it will look far better to Joe Witness to open with say whats been termed &#039;combat slap&#039;(my personal favorite OHS), than a Jab-Cross-Hook-Hammerfist-Thai clinch/double straight knee-Round elbow combo. It should be noted that in most places, legally speaking you are able to throw the first strike should you feel threatened. For example, if an aggressor comes towards you aggressively pointing, and raving about kicking your butt. 

Just my two cents, on a side note I do believe hand conditioning and proper punching is very important to not breaking your hand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Jeff, </p>
<p>  I have about 3 years Goju Karate training, 5 years Boxing, a highschool wrestling career, 3 years Muay Thai and BJJ, and was a Brown Belt MCMAP instructor while serving as an infantry rifleman in the U.S.M.C. Sorry for being a little late on this post, but I would like to post my theory on the issue based on my experience in styles which required a lot of live action sparring. </p>
<p>  It is my personal opinion and experience that in an actual &#8220;brawl&#8221;, i.e. two or more guys slugging away at each other, open hand strikes are of limited value. I say this because open hand strikes do require a great deal of precision to land effectively. Or rather they seem to be super effective when they land where they need to go, and incredibly ineffective when they miss. In my experience a palm heel uppercut for example only does incredibly substantial damage when it lands dead on the chin or nose, whereas a traditional uppercut does a good amount of damage anywhere below the forehead(some places obviously more than others). Punches seem to have more leeway. </p>
<p> Furthermore open hand strikes require different muscle groups than a closed hand strike, and thus throw off a certain amount of momentum that I want in my combinations, and most open hand strikes telegraph terribly in combos. While I believe a well place open hand strike is a &#8220;one hitter quitter&#8221; so to speak, I feel aggressive combination punches, hammerfists, elbows, knees, and kicks yield consistently better results, are more instinctive, and have a better flow. They also don&#8217;t require the same degree of absolute accuracy to be effective. Something incredibly hard under the influence of an adrenaline dump against a moving, resisting opponent.</p>
<p> That being said, I am not at all an opponent of open hand strikes, quite the opposite in fact. We all know MMA and modern H2H styles are both well rounded in the freestanding, clinch, and ground phases of combat. But I feel that there is a stage that is often neglected in most martial arts, including TMA styles, MMA styles, and to a lesser degree H2H styles. That is the preemptive phase. This is where open hand strikes really shine I feel.</p>
<p> First of all you are probably not experiencing a major adrenaline dump at that moment so your stikes are going to be more accurate and less instinctive. Second of all, the aggressor will not be as active in moving and defending, this will further help the accuracy and completion of technique. Third, &#8220;opening&#8221; with an well placed open hand strike may end the confrontation without the need for the &#8220;brawling&#8221; phases due to the effectiveness of a well placed open hand strike. And finally if you are throwing the first strike, though you may actually be right legally, it will look far better to Joe Witness to open with say whats been termed &#8216;combat slap&#8217;(my personal favorite OHS), than a Jab-Cross-Hook-Hammerfist-Thai clinch/double straight knee-Round elbow combo. It should be noted that in most places, legally speaking you are able to throw the first strike should you feel threatened. For example, if an aggressor comes towards you aggressively pointing, and raving about kicking your butt. </p>
<p>Just my two cents, on a side note I do believe hand conditioning and proper punching is very important to not breaking your hand.</p>
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		<title>By: Sensei J. Richard Kirkham B.Sc.</title>
		<link>http://www.closequarterscombat.com/blog/street-fight-fist-or-palm-heel/comment-page-2/#comment-1000</link>
		<dc:creator>Sensei J. Richard Kirkham B.Sc.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jan 2010 10:54:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.closequarterscombat.com/blog/?p=38#comment-1000</guid>
		<description>Well shoot fighting, boxing and the UFC rediscovered the purpose of boxing gloves was not to protect the opponents face but to protect the striker&#039;s hands. All of these people are experts and well trained.

I find it amazing that you feel you are the only educated person in this blog

Rick</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well shoot fighting, boxing and the UFC rediscovered the purpose of boxing gloves was not to protect the opponents face but to protect the striker&#8217;s hands. All of these people are experts and well trained.</p>
<p>I find it amazing that you feel you are the only educated person in this blog</p>
<p>Rick</p>
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		<title>By: Dark</title>
		<link>http://www.closequarterscombat.com/blog/street-fight-fist-or-palm-heel/comment-page-2/#comment-999</link>
		<dc:creator>Dark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jan 2010 05:31:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.closequarterscombat.com/blog/?p=38#comment-999</guid>
		<description>This article and the comments are all poorly educated. A fist may risk greater knuckle injury but only if you&#039;re poorly conditioned or striking stupid targets with it. Palm strikes increase the risk of finger locks or other damages to the fingers, they have less reach, they are softer, and most importantly, they spread out the impact over a large area rather than concentrating it on a small point such as the two greater knuckles. Many targets are better to use palm strikes against, such as the skull, both most, including the nose, eyes, sides of the jaw, throat, stomach, groin, and most other important targets are much more effectively struck with a fist. Palm strikes and slaps are a natural reaction but you don&#039;t see them in street fights because they have been proven uneffective except when used by a real master of internal technique (iron palm, cotton palm, etc). Unless your hand is already open (for example from a clinch hold), it&#039;s best to stick primarily with punches for your strikes

===================
Response By Jeff:
===================

First of all, while I love to get feedback on blog posts and am ALWAYS open to alternative views (I crave them actually!), I&#039;d prefer it if you (everyone) will give the same respect to others.  Starting off your comments with how everyone else is &quot;poorly educated&quot; is not a great way to take part in a conversation.  I don&#039;t think you&#039;d start a conversation like that at a cocktail party with people you don&#039;t know.  It&#039;s ok to disagree...without being disagreeable.

Let&#039;s put that behind us...

As for some of the reasons stated, when punching, &quot;knuckle damage&quot; is the least of your concerns. In fact, it&#039;s not likely that you&#039;ll seriously damage your knuckles with a punch simply because even hard targets on the body are still covered by flesh and muscle for a little bit of padding. The real concern is the &quot;chain of joints&quot; that include the wrist.  It doesn&#039;t matter how practiced you are, you&#039;re hitting a moving target and it&#039;s impossible to know for sure the exact angle you need to strike based upon the angle of your point of impact, to ensure the wrist is locked tight enough to not fold over.  It&#039;s simple bio-mechanics.

Also, the strike mentioned in this segment is about palm strikes, not finger strikes which, I would agree, are ineffective.

But I have to disagree with your position of &quot;ineffectiveness&quot; of palm strikes in a real fight.  They absolutely do work and have been proven time and time again.  I&#039;ve used them in real life and even Bas Rutten has used them against skilled professionals in the ring with incredible devastation.  They&#039;re simple to use and will absolutely level a man when struck correctly.

Thank you for your comments and I hope you&#039;ll continue to contribute to the ongoing conversation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This article and the comments are all poorly educated. A fist may risk greater knuckle injury but only if you&#8217;re poorly conditioned or striking stupid targets with it. Palm strikes increase the risk of finger locks or other damages to the fingers, they have less reach, they are softer, and most importantly, they spread out the impact over a large area rather than concentrating it on a small point such as the two greater knuckles. Many targets are better to use palm strikes against, such as the skull, both most, including the nose, eyes, sides of the jaw, throat, stomach, groin, and most other important targets are much more effectively struck with a fist. Palm strikes and slaps are a natural reaction but you don&#8217;t see them in street fights because they have been proven uneffective except when used by a real master of internal technique (iron palm, cotton palm, etc). Unless your hand is already open (for example from a clinch hold), it&#8217;s best to stick primarily with punches for your strikes</p>
<p>===================<br />
Response By Jeff:<br />
===================</p>
<p>First of all, while I love to get feedback on blog posts and am ALWAYS open to alternative views (I crave them actually!), I&#8217;d prefer it if you (everyone) will give the same respect to others.  Starting off your comments with how everyone else is &#8220;poorly educated&#8221; is not a great way to take part in a conversation.  I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;d start a conversation like that at a cocktail party with people you don&#8217;t know.  It&#8217;s ok to disagree&#8230;without being disagreeable.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s put that behind us&#8230;</p>
<p>As for some of the reasons stated, when punching, &#8220;knuckle damage&#8221; is the least of your concerns. In fact, it&#8217;s not likely that you&#8217;ll seriously damage your knuckles with a punch simply because even hard targets on the body are still covered by flesh and muscle for a little bit of padding. The real concern is the &#8220;chain of joints&#8221; that include the wrist.  It doesn&#8217;t matter how practiced you are, you&#8217;re hitting a moving target and it&#8217;s impossible to know for sure the exact angle you need to strike based upon the angle of your point of impact, to ensure the wrist is locked tight enough to not fold over.  It&#8217;s simple bio-mechanics.</p>
<p>Also, the strike mentioned in this segment is about palm strikes, not finger strikes which, I would agree, are ineffective.</p>
<p>But I have to disagree with your position of &#8220;ineffectiveness&#8221; of palm strikes in a real fight.  They absolutely do work and have been proven time and time again.  I&#8217;ve used them in real life and even Bas Rutten has used them against skilled professionals in the ring with incredible devastation.  They&#8217;re simple to use and will absolutely level a man when struck correctly.</p>
<p>Thank you for your comments and I hope you&#8217;ll continue to contribute to the ongoing conversation.</p>
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