Which Is More Effective In A Real Street Fight: Fist Or Palm Heel?
Ok, THIS oughta open up a can of worms, eh?
The debate between which striking technique works best for a “real street fight” has always been one that gets the blood boiling of die hard martial arts practitioners and close quarters combat enthusiasts.
Here’s how I approached it once in one of my Close Quarters Combat seminars…
I asked the class if they would be willing to volunteer to go over to the cement wall and punch it (hard!) with their fist.
What? No takers? Hmmmm…
Ok, so next was “Who would be willing to go over there and hit it (hard) with a strong, open handed, palm-heel?
Ahhhh…now we got some hands in the air?
Why is that?
Simple…even your subconscious knows that it’s very easy to damage your hand striking a hard surface (like someone’s jaw). But we naturally understand that we can put a LOT of force behind a palm heel and not subject ourselves to the knuckle- and wrist-destroying impact a traditional punch could bring on.
In fact, even in mixed martial arts competitions like the UFC (back when they didn’t wear gloves), there were plenty of reports of guys nursing broken fingers and strained wrists after punching in a bout.
And watch some of the clips of Bas Rutten in his UFC and other fights! Bas Rutten was a MASTER at exploding on his opponents with a fury of open handed palm-heel strikes that they couldn’t recover from!
So what do YOU think? Do me a favor and leave your comments under the blog (whether you agree or disagree) and please click on the “Bookmark and Share” button to post the comment on your Facebook, Twitter, or other social media site!
I’ve taken Krav Maga for several years and have always used open palm to strike with. Very effective.
Comment by Shemuel — August 3, 2009 @ 2:26 pm
Palm is excellent! I prefer the palm/slap, unless it’s an upper cut strike that is needed, then it’s a fist.
Comment by Dave S — August 3, 2009 @ 2:28 pm
I was in the military in the70’s n was trained in hand to hand combat. The instructor taught the open hand, advovacting that the opened hand allowed one to do more damage, one reason open hand reulted in more area than a closed fist. An open hand allowed u to hit nose n use finger to take an eye n bottom hand to stun target on chin.
Comment by brent — August 3, 2009 @ 2:30 pm
No doubt, when given time to decide which to implement in a real situation, palm wins for power of strike with less chance of injury. Problem arises when you don’t have time to think and you respond with how you train. If you punch the heavybag everyday while training, you’ll probably punch your adversary in the jaw before you even realize you did. Practice how you play.
Comment by bert — August 3, 2009 @ 2:34 pm
Palm heel is a straight drive ,in other words the strike is in line all the way to the elbow.The fist is somewhat off set.Finger bones are not tough,therefore may brake on impact.
Comment by Joe — August 3, 2009 @ 2:35 pm
Hi Jeff,
It depends of the situation you are in…Palm is marvellous because it is at close range (more effective than at long range…) and do make a lot of damage, hurts…its fast…quick palm strike and hammer it with your fist, knees, kick, shin kick…anything goes…In very close range, I love the palm strike…to temple, ears…again, it depends about his head position to you…they have so much ways to drop it with palm and fist…edge of the hands…etc…
Have a great day
Alain
Comment by Alain — August 3, 2009 @ 2:35 pm
Jeff,
I would say it depends on the situation, but your examples of hitting the concrete wall and films of Bas are great examples of the effectiveness of palm strikes!
Comment by Jake — August 3, 2009 @ 2:35 pm
I think it also depends on the target. So as a default, palm would be the better option. But some shots aren’t always power shots, so an arsenal of tools can be utilized and trained. For instance what would a hammer fist or edge of hand blow be considered?
Comment by Nathan — August 3, 2009 @ 2:35 pm
Palm all the way. not only can you avoid damaging you hand (i.e. knuckles, finger bones, etc) but palms are way faster and leave your options for structural manipulation and applications of instinctive counters way open.
Comment by Kelly Whelan-Enns — August 3, 2009 @ 2:35 pm
It has been my experiance that not only is an palm heel strike more effective to an experianced street fighter (NOT A FORMALLY TRAINED FIGHTER) It is for me a faster and more accurate blow when trying to strike someone who is actually trying to avoid getting hit. I have found that I can change the course of my strike easier to make contact with said MOVING target. Not a target that is trained to take a blow. Hence street fighting. But hey! Whatever works for you, WORKS for you.
Comment by Joseph — August 3, 2009 @ 2:37 pm
I feel that heel palm strikes are more effective and safer. Heel palm strikes are bone against bone.
Comment by Daniel R. Devine — August 3, 2009 @ 2:41 pm
I certainly find the palm-heel strike most effective. This way I find it easier to keep it going for a longer time.
Comment by Freddy — August 3, 2009 @ 2:43 pm
I am a definite supporter of the palm for several reasons. The palm heel to several points on the head, even to points on the torso is very effective. The chin jab, tiger claw, etc to the face are also. If you investigate early bare knucle boxing you will find the palm in great use, and fists primarily used to strike the torso. You points about Bas, as well as the wraps used in sport fighting make your point well. The palm to the face in addition to the claw also lends itself to various eye strikes, and a good rake to the eyes will incapacitate most opponents. As my father always said, if they cannot see, breathe and/or walk, they cannot fight.
Comment by Michael — August 3, 2009 @ 2:46 pm
My dad used to use slaps to brutalize me as a kid. He did not punch me, but slapped my temples and face (while screaming at me to stand at attention), which would cause me to see stars while he performed this act of sadism. It rarely left marks, except when he almost broke my jaw one time and my face puffed up for a few hours.
A really great technique is to throw an inner chop against someone’s neck. Caused my thug nephew a concussion when he threatened me and my mom a few years ago. No one else in my family had the balls to put this s@&thead in his place, even after he stole thousands of dollars from my mom and trashed her house.
Have also almost broken my brother’s sternum with a fist when he came over and woke me up late on a Saturday night, drunk as hell, and bad mouthed me and woke my mom up. Both my nephew and brother outweigh me by at least 40 pounds. They fear me because they know my attitude towards people in general sucks, since most everyone is a blood sucking, back stabbing piece of crap.
Have been practicing slap (chop and finger) techniques on an iron bag recently, and honestly think that slaps are deadly, which is why they should be used only in an emergency. Try my best to avoid fights, because that is a surefire way to get shot or thrown in jail. Still practice death dealing techniques in order to gain a mental edge, so people avoid f$&king with me in the first place.
PS – was totally into Sonny Chiba and Chuck Norris back in the late 70s.
Comment by jim — August 3, 2009 @ 2:47 pm
The heel of the hand is best for the chin but to the plexus a fist or elbow is usually more effective.
Comment by Jack — August 3, 2009 @ 2:49 pm
As part of any confrontation, you must be continually THINKING, and the use of fist or open hand is part of that. If I am aiming for the body, I will use a fist.(concentrated force to break ribs or solar plexis, or damage shoulder joints) This will also lessen risk of broken fingers from fold-back. To the face, open-handed heel strikes to nose, chin, jaw, etc. is very effective. To SIDE of head and face, open-hand SLAP can cause serious pain! (especially over the ears!) I even use a closed fist in many of my blocks, because it tightens and hardens the muscles in the forearm. I can still get my hand open in plenty of time for a grab of the arm, leg or clothing.
So it is not so much a debate of either or, but rather–WHEN to use each.
Comment by Floyd Burdett — August 3, 2009 @ 2:50 pm
Hi Jeff,
I believe Bas Rutten was required to strike open handed in the Pancrase organisation and in one fight with Frank Shamrock was goaded into striking with a closed fist and nearly got disqualified.
A very effective form of striking as you alluded to and particularly effective around the ear and temple areas with minimal damage to the hands and also a larger contact area as another advantage.
Comment by Scoth — August 3, 2009 @ 2:50 pm
Palm heel.
When teaching personal defense I use the example of the Mike Tyson vs Mitch Green street brawl in the late 1980’s. Mike was arguably the deadliest man in the pro ring then. In an alcohol-induced scuffle with pro heavyweight Mitch Green, Tyson came out on top but broke his hand in the process (point: they were well-trained devastating punchers, but trained with gloves).
Use the fist on a heavy bag, or on a “Bob” dummmy. Then use a hard open hand. Palm heel wins.
Comment by Butch Adams — August 3, 2009 @ 2:50 pm
Shoot fighting is still full contact with no gloves and they quickly discovered palm strikes save the fingers. Ken Shamrock was originally a shoot fighter
Rick
Comment by Sensei J. Richard Kirkham B.Sc. — August 3, 2009 @ 2:51 pm
Hi Jeff,
I taught a class on Sat. with local Doorman (Bouncers) and asked the same question. It went quiet, so I expanded. Lets grab a brick and you can punch or palm it hard, what would be better for you and worse for your opponent?
They got the message, plus as Doorman Palms don’t smash the face up like a fist does, so less likely for the guy to want to sue or charge them. So on both points its better to use Palm strikes.
Live, Learn, Inspire!
Craig Burman
Street Awareness Skills
Australia
Comment by craig burman — August 3, 2009 @ 2:52 pm
The use of the palm or fist is a matter of target, distance, what you have in your hand or hands, etc. Of course it’s not wise to us a fist where you could be injured, but you might not have a choice. So know how to STRIKE with many differant weapons. The palm is great up close, but I know I’m preaching to the choir cause you already know that.
Comment by Dan — August 3, 2009 @ 2:53 pm
Open hand if necessity calls for it, its hard to implement a weapon later on if your hand is broke from punching someone’s head.
Comment by Mac — August 3, 2009 @ 3:07 pm
Jeff,
The answer in my opinion is both.
I haven’t seen anyone yet mention a hammer-fist or back-fist.
Rarely should anyone carry only one tool in a toolbox.
Although I am partial to the knife hand, I prefer to position
my self with a relaxed open hand and then grab,lock,or strike
the target as it becomes available with the appropriate tool.
Mark Timmerman
Junjou Ryu
Comment by Mark Timmerman — August 3, 2009 @ 3:08 pm
GREAT addition Craig!
We always have to be aware of what happens AFTER the fight and maintain as much legal foundation as possible for our actions!
Thanks!
Comment by Jeff Anderson — August 3, 2009 @ 3:08 pm
Firstly I’m by no means an authority, just my experiences. Also this is not aimed at anyone on here or anywhere else. just my thoughts and opinions :
In an ideal world, hard target soft weapon, soft target hard weapon, just like they used to preach in the MA’s.
The problem, and I would think most people who have actually tried this in a live situation would agree with me, is its very hard to find enough time to think at all when you have a guy infront of you intent in knocking you straight into last week. You would think it would be easy to see a target and hit it with the right weapon. But then speculating on fighting techniqe is always easier when you’re not actually fighting.
Generally, a fist will get you more consistant knockouts (although not always), while a slap or palm heel will save your fingers knuckles and wrist.
Finally, there has been debate on wether the jaw is a hard or soft target, based on the fact both the jaw and the kneck ‘give’. I used to be of the opinion that the jaw was a hard target, however after knocking a mate out with a punch to the jaw in sparing, personally I now consider it more of a soft target – its more like hitting a break board or ply wood. Its hard, but its not a brick wall.
Whats best for a street fight? Please see my second paragraph.
Paul
Comment by paul — August 3, 2009 @ 3:14 pm
Maybe there are no comments because this is such a self-evident truth that no discussion is needed. One wonders how debate can go on.
Comment by Gary Brainard — August 3, 2009 @ 3:16 pm
I have to agree that the palm is much better to use as a natural weapon. I have been teaching martial arts for years, and teach Combatives to our unit within the Georgia State Defense Force.
I teach the open palm rather than punching because they are less likely to damage their hands, and it is much easier to hit their target, especially while under the effects of the adrenalin rush. I also do teach punching, so they get a well rounded education, but most would rather stike with a palm then fist.
You can also use the open palm amd hit with pretty much the same amount of force and do the same amount of damage. In striking with the first one must practice this technique on a very regular basis, but in reality they can still break the small bones of their hands.
Great debate that will go on for years and years, and as you say most likely until the end of time.
Hooah!!!!!!!
Comment by Littsmed1 — August 3, 2009 @ 3:19 pm
Hey Jeff!
Jeff Miller here. The debate may ring on forever, but I find that those who debate haven’t really “been there.” I understand your question as a matter of fore-knuckle fist over palm-heel strike when punching. And my students are always taught to strike the head and jaw area with the palm-heel first.
It’s not until they get more weapons in their “toolbox” and have a better understanding of target surfaces and matching the weapon to the target do we get into using other weapons on the harder head and jaw targets. As a practitioner of Ninjutsu, it can be easy to get lost in all of the “secret fists” and tricky moves but then, it’s easy to get lost in the Hollywood and Madison Square Garden (boxing) versions of fighting as real-world self-defense.
The reasoning that I give my students in the beginning, which matches their training in anatomy and physiology (the ninja always uses less energy but against a sensitive area which maximizes the effect on the body’s systems), is the fact that the front section of the skull, from jaw to brow region, and across the full span is rife with chisel-like surfaces. This makes it nearly impossible to punch the face with a conventional fist and “not” break something on yourself. It is also these angled surfaces that force the wrist out of alignment on impact and cause other damage.
The trick, as I see it, is to consistently train to make sure that you develop the “habit” or whatever, to be able to use the palm-strike. We are so programmed, even before we know it, by movies, sports, and our own “inner caveman” that developing “enlightened” fighting sills takes time and practice. But, then… that IS what makes the difference between practitioners and experts.
Again… all this is offered based on my own experience and opinion.
Thanks for providing a platform that helps everyone take it to the next level.
Jeff Miller
CQC Instructor
Comment by Jeff Miller — August 3, 2009 @ 3:36 pm
When it comes down to streetfighting, in a real situation you don’t have time to stand there and think what your going to use, but in my experience with this i have to say that even though we may have preferance to one or the other, BOTH in combination can do some serious damage, but of course there are set backs of both.
With knuckles, the force is transfered onto single points of impact, if such force is applied to the cheek bone or nose directly the result would be a broken cheek bone or nose, and it is painful.
Unfortunatly, the knuckles themselves are easily damaged and the wrists can sometimes pay for it, for instance i now have to take Glucosimine Sulphate (sp?) to keep my joints in check.
With palms, the force is spread over a wider area, this causes a more ‘push-back’ effect causing disorientation, it also open your opponent up and exposes his weak points i.e. jaw, trachea, juggular, nerve points etc which can then be easily struck. They also cover a wider area so that when striking, you might block your opponents sight with your fingers or even poke into his eyes causing him distress (which alone could be enough for you to get away)
it can lose its power and its related effects, other than this it is quite effective.
Unfortunately with the palms, if the strike doesn’t hit directly (and for though who say that their strike always does, get a sparring partner and ask them to bob and weave as you strike
In a streetfight, i personally prefer palms because it can be used to strike, disorentate, block vision and give a few extra seconds to work over while the opponent is recovering their line of sight.
The above is just my opinion but i think even though like i’ve said we may have a preferance to one or the other, in combination they can both be efective. This debate will continue, but thats because of one simple reason, not everyone prefers the same thing.
Comment by Sean Hardwick — August 3, 2009 @ 3:36 pm
Many years ago I debated with a close friend about the effectiveness of the palm heel strike. I explained to him that my original style (kajukenpo) used palm heels very effectively. The philosphy was hard target, soft weapon (palm heel), soft target, hard weapon (fist). Later on another one of my instructors stated, “We don’t use a fist to punch the bowling ball (head).” Proper training with the proper weapon for the proper target.
Comment by Keith — August 3, 2009 @ 3:52 pm
hi, palm heel vs.fist is always such an interesting debate! i think both are effective but i prefer to use the palm heel or open hand.all that really matters at the end of the day is getting home safe,so what ever works best for you,do it!
Comment by romero — August 3, 2009 @ 3:53 pm
I really think it comes down to how well you are trained in striking. Meaning how well you deliver a strike and where you deliver the strike.
I think palm or slap striking are very effective and just as effective as punching, but there is more chance of injury to your fingers and wrist at the same time.
On the same account, it would go against a fist strike as well….You must NOT keep the fist solid, but a little more loose and train yourself only to tighten up on or near impact so the energy transfer is much less then a full strike to the face…
It really comes down to training.
Comment by Tommy DiLallo — August 3, 2009 @ 3:55 pm
Number 30 made sense
Don’t punch the bowling ball (head) I like that. I see no problem with punching the soft parts of the body or even the ribs
Rick
Comment by Sensei J. Richard Kirkham B.Sc. — August 3, 2009 @ 3:59 pm
It really doesn”t matter. Most strikes are used based on the way you are taught. Fact is in the street nothing playes out exactly as it does in training. In the street you don’t have time to think, you just do it. As long as it gets the job done and brings you home safe each day, I could care less what you call the particular technique.
Comment by David Owen — August 3, 2009 @ 4:07 pm
Apples, Oranges , A time and place for every purpose under heaven. There are areas to use fists and there are areas to use palms. The ancient argument about the difference between this or that… Sifu Steve
Comment by Steve — August 3, 2009 @ 4:14 pm
Injury consciousness makes me say palm/edge of hand. Practicing one way or the other will create the swift memory you need in an adrenaline rush. However,
to much thinking in a streetfight will get you hurt. Swift forward motions at your oponent, putting them off balance, off sight, off plan with open hands gives you many more options than a closed fist.
Opinion only, not an expert…bill
Comment by Bill — August 3, 2009 @ 4:14 pm
I have seen experts show a palm strike and they also say that its more effective as your arm is more relaxed while throwing the strike causing you to generate more power. Where a punch is thrown with more tension because of the fist bein clenched and if not done correctly you will lose power.
Comment by Stevie — August 3, 2009 @ 4:20 pm
well the fact that the majority of “traditional” studio martial arts training focuses heavily on jabs, hooks, and high kicks, may be the source of the controversy, although they may have some use of palms, ridge hand, and knife hand strikes, there is no real practical application. So the use in these techniques would take a serious re-training of the habits, and of course the mind set. The schools mentioned earlier focus on competitive sports not practical survival skills.
Comment by smithjacusmc — August 3, 2009 @ 4:33 pm
Well, Jiu Jitsu guy here so not too much punching or open palm-heel going on, but I would have to say, after breaking my right hand in a school fight (lame lame I know) I would gladly go with the palm-heel. It brings more damage to the opponent and less to you (in my opinion at least).
Comment by Billy — August 3, 2009 @ 4:45 pm
I would utilize the palm heel over the fist. Also the knife hand, ridge hand, spear hand, hammer fist and the mind fist. These to me are more appropriate, powerful, exact and easier in transition from each other especially in close quarters. The most important factor is the less risk of injury to the hand and the understanding of body play. I am not reducing the effectiveness of the closed fist strike or punching but my training has allowed me to experience that for me a combination of these strikes are not as easily telegraphed and take less loss of balance and movement in positioning are also good at opening one up to some extent for more accurate delivery to some more vital areas. I am able to exp-lode from my root more effectively and destroy the enemies center line most importantly his thought box. again with less chance of injury to my fingers, knuckles wrist or hand thus my training continues. Of course we must always use the most effective response, weapon and method towards the situation at hand and one might not be necessarily more or less effective than the other and I wouldn’t rely on one teqnique alone over a combination of destructive moves and mental keenness. Use the right tool for the job and apply . Effectiveness is based on proper application which in turn yields outcome and if the results are life over death at the end of the day a recoverable injury would be only small price to pay if it was ultimately part of the process of surviving.
Comment by J. — August 3, 2009 @ 5:04 pm
I prefer a combination of both. Open palm covers much more area then a fist. But for power and the knock out the closed fist is the way to go.
Comment by Jim Medlin — August 3, 2009 @ 5:22 pm
Can you spell Metacarpal? I broke 3 mostly in Bar Fights when I was on Shore Patrol. The best way to handle a COMPOUND FRACTURE of a Metacarpal is to immediatly wash it off in cold water (after cuffubg and stuffing the drunken Perp) and putting a fresh sandwich bag on it. then seal it up until you can get to a Dr.
The heel of the hand used well has about 15 inches of bone backing it up and feels like you’ve been hit with the big circle end of a Louisville Slugger. These days I am 70+ and would rather walk than fight but don’t count on it.
By the way smacking both ears of an assailant with your cupped hand will ruin his cognitive thinking for quite awhile. If it is a friend then open the fingers a bit.
Thanks for the tip of practiceing with the open hand, I didn’t think of that.
To the guys that taught me……..Semper Fi!
Master Chief Thomas Pendlebury USN ret.
Master Chief Thomas Pendlebury USN ret.
Comment by Thomas Pendlebury — August 3, 2009 @ 5:54 pm
Hello Jeff,
Personally I Prefer open Palm, I’ve had Less injuries in both street fights and Exhibitions with friends and sparing partners, then I would with a closed fist. The worst I’ve had was maybe a bruise, whilst leaving the “Street thug” with Way more pain and a few good bruises
Comment by Jesse — August 3, 2009 @ 6:09 pm
I’ve found within my lifes experiences, that it all depends on point of attack. When you go to spread a couple of ribs, I’ve found a modified fist works the best. If I’m going for neck and arm pressure points I prefer open, or knife hand. I beleive each has their own extraordinary benefits
Comment by Ed — August 3, 2009 @ 7:12 pm
There really is no question the palm can do far more with considerably less training, than the smaller bones in the fingers can do even with large sums of training. I have pretty much always taught palm in my self defense classes designed for women as a primary weapon. I often teach to strike on forward movements and rip/tear on pulling movements. Can’t do that with a fist.
Comment by Larry Clements — August 3, 2009 @ 8:10 pm
well you cant really give an answer to a question like that. its like your father making a joke and asking who do you like better mom or dad. martial arts is all about adapt, improvise, overcome. a good tip is vary your strikes. if you are looking for a good blow causing real body and jaw braking damage for a finisher, fist is what you would probably use right. but if your looking for a strike that would cause intense pain to brake him down, palm is what you would use. this really also varies the style strike and where.
Comment by ben — August 3, 2009 @ 8:17 pm
My personal opinion is that fist do more damage and have greater stopping and knockout power, but open handed attacks are less likely to hurt yourself. I’d go with open hands for the face and closed fists for the body.
Comment by Marcos Souza — August 3, 2009 @ 10:19 pm
I also recommend the palm,it is more easier for transition into knife hand ,spear hand,among others and my hand is open for easy grappling for a throw after hit..if there’s a possibility
Comment by mervin — August 3, 2009 @ 10:41 pm
Fist is better than palm because for blocking a viscous attack we kneed to close youfist tight so that your hands especially forearms so that your hands resit the attack
Comment by Harshal — August 4, 2009 @ 2:40 am
“Snake head punches the heart – crane’s wing cuts the gate” (Wing Chun maxim)
Comment by FREDDIE — August 4, 2009 @ 2:44 am
Palm is better. Various ‘fists’ are fun to study & can be technically more effective, but take a great deal of practice to be able to use automatically.
Comment by chris price — August 4, 2009 @ 3:57 am
The most common injury in a street fight is a busted hand. So palm heel for hard targets and fist for soft targets. However this can depend on distance as a fist gives you a couple of inches extra reach.
Comment by Chris — August 4, 2009 @ 4:24 am
The Palm. as some of us asians have small wrists. by hitting someone in condition may sprain the wrist joint.
Comment by Syrus — August 4, 2009 @ 5:53 am
Jeff. I forgot about this one that I used at work when I was attacked while in uniform by a rather large Tweeker. The fool grabbed my left arm with his right and pulled me around to face him. I spun with it, right hand spread with thumb and forfinger wide, connecting with a short chop to the throat hard enough to make Applesauce.
He was unable to continue or even talk for 9/10 minutes as he collapsed over Jim L’s desk.
Again the 2 large bones in the arm twixt wrist and elbow did the job like ballast on a ship in stormy seas. I am a Master Chief Firecontrol Technician and delivered ammo for Army and Marines and cannot tress enough hitting on target. Choose it wisely, pick your weapon and in case of Marines, do not deliver any short rounds!
Comment by Thomas Pendlebury — August 4, 2009 @ 8:55 am
GREAT story (and funny!) Thomas!
Point well taken…targeting rules!
A softer hit to a critical area most of the time is more effective than a harder hit to a non-critical area!
Thanks brother!
Comment by Jeff Anderson — August 4, 2009 @ 9:05 am
I totally agree with Mr. Anderson on this one. The skull is a big, hard bone and doing any real damage to it requires a strong accurate strike that the fist just can’t do without risking some broken hand bones. Boxers and MMA use gloves that pad the knuckles and allow them to beat each others skulls in, on the street you’ll be nursing your hands for about six weeks if you try the same thing. The palm works great to strike the nose or eyes, causing an opponents eyes to water and making it hard to see. The throat is a far better target when it comes to a down and dirty fight, best hit with a tiger paw (the name depends on the art you study, what I mean is a half fist with the fingers curled back and hitting with the sharp finger joints forward of the knuckles), a spear hand, ridge hand, etc. It’s hard to fight if you can’t breath…
Comment by The Pathfinder — August 4, 2009 @ 12:46 pm
So here’s the deal. I studied Taekwondo and Hapkido for many years, and have been in law enforcement for 23 years. A constant mantra is “hard on soft, soft on hard”. Fist, knee, elbow strikes are best placed into soft area of the body such as abdomen, neck, groin, etc., while strikes with the palm are great for hard contact areas such as the head, or in case of making contacts with elbows, etc. For those who don’t regularly practice a form of defense I always tell them to just use the open palm, and if to the face use the fingers to engage the eyes and cause the tears to flow.
Comment by Bruce Maldonado — August 4, 2009 @ 1:12 pm
I have taken both Isshinryu and Taekwondo and with Isshinryu you stike with the top 2 knuckles on the fist. TKD is with the full fist, or atleast that is what I have been taught. But I myself would rather rely on the palm strike in a close combat situation. You hit and break a knuckle and your basically done.
Comment by Donnie — August 4, 2009 @ 1:17 pm
The topic has been covered pretty well by previous comments – I vote palm.
Comment by Charles — August 4, 2009 @ 2:41 pm
You’re right Mr. Anderson, but I’ve had situation where I could only hit those irritating spots. Plain knucles to the guy’s on guard elbow etc
Rick
Comment by Sensei J. Richard Kirkham B.Sc. — August 4, 2009 @ 2:47 pm
I’ve studied Karate and TaeKwonDo, both teaching to use palm and punching. I’m used to closed fist strikes but agree that open palm is more effective in certain situations. I believe reaction time is quicker than with a tensed fist, covers more striking area and also allows more affective blocking/grabbing defense when in close then having your fist loaded and ready.
Herman
Comment by Herman — August 4, 2009 @ 3:47 pm
Great point about reaction time. When I teach internal energy strikes I always start them with the palm strike
Rick
Comment by Sensei J. Richard Kirkham B.Sc. — August 4, 2009 @ 5:06 pm
Yeah I dunno gentleman, I am an old school streetbrawler, like from before it was an MMA, so I used every part of my person as a weapon, head, forearms elbows, knees, shins, feet fingers and thumbs. I can see the benefit of palm versus fist in certain head strikes, knife-edge for neck /throat armpit areas….I guess what I am saying is situation dictates the attack
Comment by Griff — August 4, 2009 @ 6:45 pm
I can’t say that palm strike is more effective than fist strike given that both
are very useful and have to be applied wisely in different situations.
Comment by iataake — August 4, 2009 @ 6:55 pm
I agree plam is better than your fist.
Comment by Charles — August 4, 2009 @ 10:33 pm
Elbow
Comment by Jeremy — August 5, 2009 @ 11:16 am
a fist is more effective then a palm but i would recomend the fist to anyone who is about to encounter a grave threat.
Comment by ron — August 5, 2009 @ 1:04 pm
Dip, Hit, Lift
Jeff,
I took some martial arts training while in the Navy. ‘m a long ways from being a black belt, but I can hold my ground when necessary.
I have a lot to say about the topic. Those that say that you don’t have time to think are correct, but that’s why training and practice are so important. When you are actually encountered in a real situation, you don’t think about it, you act!
Secondly, I must agree with what most of you are saying, that a palm delivers more power to your opponent and (when done correctly)should deliver less stress to your entire arm from the shoulder down.
The idea that you can’t get hurt using the open palm is incorrect! If you hit your opponent wrong you can hurt yourself by breaking fingers and pulling muscle and tendons in your lower arm. This also speaks to the importance of proper training and technique.
I can think of one situation where the fist is better. If someone is grappling with you and you want to push him away, I think it is better to use a knuckle fist, using your knuckles to hit under the sternum, lifting and driving as you dliver the blow, and at the same time using your other arm to push your opponent off of you.
What do you think?
Paul (Red),veteran of the US Navy Submarines
Comment by Paul — August 5, 2009 @ 1:23 pm
Nice comment Paul (Red)!
We’re actually getting ready to shoot a video that is kind of similar to the tip you brought up when it comes to groundfighting.
Thanks for the comment…and your service!
Jeff
Comment by Jeff Anderson — August 5, 2009 @ 1:38 pm
i am a bit of an experienced free style street fighter (school fights to the wal-mart parking lot to an ex-girlfriends new boyfriend who tried to kick my but and failed, from fist & palms to knives & guns and even a machete)and i think it depends on the target area fist,elbow,& knees for soft areas and palms (sometimes knee or elbow) for the harder targets like the face, chest, ribs, & outer knee
i have kept to that since my first fight and i have never lost
Comment by justin — August 5, 2009 @ 2:38 pm
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My Father has 3 black belts from: Judo, Aikido, Hapkido, and years of
real-world workouts from my GrandFather & all my other relatives, from the
Phillipino Martial Arts. Our family grew up in Hawaii, my Father was in the
Army in WW11, then he was a Sheriff in Hawaii before it became the 50th, in
those days Law & Order was hard to come by, so my Father had to use a street
wise-practical form of self defense to survive. My Father passed along his
skills & knowledge to all of his 5 sons, we entered into Judo at age 6 to
learn how to take a fall and fight on the ground, after 5 years of Judo we then pursued the style we wanted. After high school I signed up to go to Vietnam, followed by the Sheriff’s dept., I had many opportunities for my
skills to be tested. I vote ‘Open Hand’ simply for the fact of versatility
in any given situation to utilize any and all strategies/techniques for a rapidly changing defense/offensive encounter. Open Palm strikes pull back your fingers from battle damage, and are simultaneously available to adapt to any change in your opponent’s movements. I have personally studied 6 different forms of fighting/self defense, and I have learned to not get stuck into a static mindset of ‘every encounter will go like this!’ you have to be ready to instantly counter your opponent. I started training in the Asian Martial Arts
back when ‘only Asians’ were accepted as students. So I never got trapped in the ‘Western stand-up brawls’ mindset depicted in movies & TV.
Comment by Norward A. Vios — August 5, 2009 @ 4:42 pm
Fingers are for grasping. Butt of the palm and elbow – take their head off.
Comment by Bruce Lind — August 6, 2009 @ 3:53 pm
There were many good points made in this forum. Both strikes are very affective when used properly. The palm heel is by far less prone to injury, however a closed tight fist, when delivered “properly” is equally effective. The back of the hand must be level with the wrist and forearm and the first two knuckles should be straight or inline with the wrist and forearm. This maximizes the energy delivered and greatly reduces injury to the hand.
Comment by D. White — August 7, 2009 @ 5:16 pm
Here’s an approach that’s worth exploring. Make your initial preemptive shot a colossal haymaker to his jaw with the aid of some deceptive chicanery. The jaw will yield, unlike a Bowling Ball and it’s likely going to be more than enough to end it. If however things don’t work out and you’re stuck in a symmetrical give and take where hitting his forehead is likely, revert to the palm strike.
Comment by Steve — August 7, 2009 @ 5:53 pm
Palm is great, and you can do a lot of cheat moves with palm in boxing, but the fist is supreme. The thing is you have to work it all the time. You can do a decent open hand strike and not hurt yourself much with little practice, but a good right cross needs serious practice.
Fist is better, but you need to practice it.
Comment by Scott — August 8, 2009 @ 1:44 am
When we train our studets at the costumes we always teach them to use the palm.
The reason is if you have to step back and use your gun ore your stick and you have broken your fingers on for exampel the forhead on the bandit,you will have a hard time drawing your weapon.
Comment by Torbjörn — August 11, 2009 @ 1:02 pm
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Given the psychological element of violence or any emergency situation. Many people on here have rightly side that your response needs to be automatic as you won’t be thinking too much about techniques when your mind is in emergency mode.
Therefore it makes sense to thoroughly drill whichever one it is you need to use automatically, whether it is the punch, palm strike, edge of hand or whatever. When I was younger I spent a lot of time in both wing chun and boxing, so studying chinjabs and edge of hand has taken me a long time to develop.
Comment by John Field — November 10, 2009 @ 2:07 pm
No offense to John just kidding around, but he figured out a way to say
“You fight the way you train” in a longer sentence than me and I’m a writer
lol
Rick
Comment by Sensei J. Richard Kirkham B.Sc. — November 10, 2009 @ 4:23 pm
This article and the comments are all poorly educated. A fist may risk greater knuckle injury but only if you’re poorly conditioned or striking stupid targets with it. Palm strikes increase the risk of finger locks or other damages to the fingers, they have less reach, they are softer, and most importantly, they spread out the impact over a large area rather than concentrating it on a small point such as the two greater knuckles. Many targets are better to use palm strikes against, such as the skull, both most, including the nose, eyes, sides of the jaw, throat, stomach, groin, and most other important targets are much more effectively struck with a fist. Palm strikes and slaps are a natural reaction but you don’t see them in street fights because they have been proven uneffective except when used by a real master of internal technique (iron palm, cotton palm, etc). Unless your hand is already open (for example from a clinch hold), it’s best to stick primarily with punches for your strikes
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Response By Jeff:
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First of all, while I love to get feedback on blog posts and am ALWAYS open to alternative views (I crave them actually!), I’d prefer it if you (everyone) will give the same respect to others. Starting off your comments with how everyone else is “poorly educated” is not a great way to take part in a conversation. I don’t think you’d start a conversation like that at a cocktail party with people you don’t know. It’s ok to disagree…without being disagreeable.
Let’s put that behind us…
As for some of the reasons stated, when punching, “knuckle damage” is the least of your concerns. In fact, it’s not likely that you’ll seriously damage your knuckles with a punch simply because even hard targets on the body are still covered by flesh and muscle for a little bit of padding. The real concern is the “chain of joints” that include the wrist. It doesn’t matter how practiced you are, you’re hitting a moving target and it’s impossible to know for sure the exact angle you need to strike based upon the angle of your point of impact, to ensure the wrist is locked tight enough to not fold over. It’s simple bio-mechanics.
Also, the strike mentioned in this segment is about palm strikes, not finger strikes which, I would agree, are ineffective.
But I have to disagree with your position of “ineffectiveness” of palm strikes in a real fight. They absolutely do work and have been proven time and time again. I’ve used them in real life and even Bas Rutten has used them against skilled professionals in the ring with incredible devastation. They’re simple to use and will absolutely level a man when struck correctly.
Thank you for your comments and I hope you’ll continue to contribute to the ongoing conversation.
Comment by Dark — January 1, 2010 @ 11:31 pm
Well shoot fighting, boxing and the UFC rediscovered the purpose of boxing gloves was not to protect the opponents face but to protect the striker’s hands. All of these people are experts and well trained.
I find it amazing that you feel you are the only educated person in this blog
Rick
Comment by Sensei J. Richard Kirkham B.Sc. — January 2, 2010 @ 4:54 am