Which Is More Effective In A Real Street Fight: Fist Or Palm Heel?
Ok, THIS oughta open up a can of worms, eh?
The debate between which striking technique works best for a “real street fight” has always been one that gets the blood boiling of die hard martial arts practitioners and close quarters combat enthusiasts.
Here’s how I approached it once in one of my Close Quarters Combat seminars…
I asked the class if they would be willing to volunteer to go over to the cement wall and punch it (hard!) with their fist.
What? No takers? Hmmmm…
Ok, so next was “Who would be willing to go over there and hit it (hard) with a strong, open handed, palm-heel?
Ahhhh…now we got some hands in the air?
Why is that?
Simple…even your subconscious knows that it’s very easy to damage your hand striking a hard surface (like someone’s jaw). But we naturally understand that we can put a LOT of force behind a palm heel and not subject ourselves to the knuckle- and wrist-destroying impact a traditional punch could bring on.
In fact, even in mixed martial arts competitions like the UFC (back when they didn’t wear gloves), there were plenty of reports of guys nursing broken fingers and strained wrists after punching in a bout.
And watch some of the clips of Bas Rutten in his UFC and other fights! Bas Rutten was a MASTER at exploding on his opponents with a fury of open handed palm-heel strikes that they couldn’t recover from!
So what do YOU think? Do me a favor and leave your comments under the blog (whether you agree or disagree) and please click on the “Bookmark and Share” button to post the comment on your Facebook, Twitter, or other social media site!
The most common injury in a street fight is a busted hand. So palm heel for hard targets and fist for soft targets. However this can depend on distance as a fist gives you a couple of inches extra reach.
The Palm. as some of us asians have small wrists. by hitting someone in condition may sprain the wrist joint.
Jeff. I forgot about this one that I used at work when I was attacked while in uniform by a rather large Tweeker. The fool grabbed my left arm with his right and pulled me around to face him. I spun with it, right hand spread with thumb and forfinger wide, connecting with a short chop to the throat hard enough to make Applesauce.
He was unable to continue or even talk for 9/10 minutes as he collapsed over Jim L’s desk.
Again the 2 large bones in the arm twixt wrist and elbow did the job like ballast on a ship in stormy seas. I am a Master Chief Firecontrol Technician and delivered ammo for Army and Marines and cannot tress enough hitting on target. Choose it wisely, pick your weapon and in case of Marines, do not deliver any short rounds!
GREAT story (and funny!) Thomas!
Point well taken…targeting rules!
A softer hit to a critical area most of the time is more effective than a harder hit to a non-critical area!
Thanks brother!
I totally agree with Mr. Anderson on this one. The skull is a big, hard bone and doing any real damage to it requires a strong accurate strike that the fist just can’t do without risking some broken hand bones. Boxers and MMA use gloves that pad the knuckles and allow them to beat each others skulls in, on the street you’ll be nursing your hands for about six weeks if you try the same thing. The palm works great to strike the nose or eyes, causing an opponents eyes to water and making it hard to see. The throat is a far better target when it comes to a down and dirty fight, best hit with a tiger paw (the name depends on the art you study, what I mean is a half fist with the fingers curled back and hitting with the sharp finger joints forward of the knuckles), a spear hand, ridge hand, etc. It’s hard to fight if you can’t breath…
So here’s the deal. I studied Taekwondo and Hapkido for many years, and have been in law enforcement for 23 years. A constant mantra is “hard on soft, soft on hard”. Fist, knee, elbow strikes are best placed into soft area of the body such as abdomen, neck, groin, etc., while strikes with the palm are great for hard contact areas such as the head, or in case of making contacts with elbows, etc. For those who don’t regularly practice a form of defense I always tell them to just use the open palm, and if to the face use the fingers to engage the eyes and cause the tears to flow.
I have taken both Isshinryu and Taekwondo and with Isshinryu you stike with the top 2 knuckles on the fist. TKD is with the full fist, or atleast that is what I have been taught. But I myself would rather rely on the palm strike in a close combat situation. You hit and break a knuckle and your basically done.
The topic has been covered pretty well by previous comments – I vote palm.
You’re right Mr. Anderson, but I’ve had situation where I could only hit those irritating spots. Plain knucles to the guy’s on guard elbow etc
Rick
I’ve studied Karate and TaeKwonDo, both teaching to use palm and punching. I’m used to closed fist strikes but agree that open palm is more effective in certain situations. I believe reaction time is quicker than with a tensed fist, covers more striking area and also allows more affective blocking/grabbing defense when in close then having your fist loaded and ready.
Herman
Great point about reaction time. When I teach internal energy strikes I always start them with the palm strike
Rick
Yeah I dunno gentleman, I am an old school streetbrawler, like from before it was an MMA, so I used every part of my person as a weapon, head, forearms elbows, knees, shins, feet fingers and thumbs. I can see the benefit of palm versus fist in certain head strikes, knife-edge for neck /throat armpit areas….I guess what I am saying is situation dictates the attack
I can’t say that palm strike is more effective than fist strike given that both
are very useful and have to be applied wisely in different situations.
I agree plam is better than your fist.
Elbow
a fist is more effective then a palm but i would recomend the fist to anyone who is about to encounter a grave threat.
Dip, Hit, Lift
Jeff,
I took some martial arts training while in the Navy. ‘m a long ways from being a black belt, but I can hold my ground when necessary.
I have a lot to say about the topic. Those that say that you don’t have time to think are correct, but that’s why training and practice are so important. When you are actually encountered in a real situation, you don’t think about it, you act!
Secondly, I must agree with what most of you are saying, that a palm delivers more power to your opponent and (when done correctly)should deliver less stress to your entire arm from the shoulder down.
The idea that you can’t get hurt using the open palm is incorrect! If you hit your opponent wrong you can hurt yourself by breaking fingers and pulling muscle and tendons in your lower arm. This also speaks to the importance of proper training and technique.
I can think of one situation where the fist is better. If someone is grappling with you and you want to push him away, I think it is better to use a knuckle fist, using your knuckles to hit under the sternum, lifting and driving as you dliver the blow, and at the same time using your other arm to push your opponent off of you.
What do you think?
Paul (Red),veteran of the US Navy Submarines
Nice comment Paul (Red)!
We’re actually getting ready to shoot a video that is kind of similar to the tip you brought up when it comes to groundfighting.
Thanks for the comment…and your service!
Jeff
i am a bit of an experienced free style street fighter (school fights to the wal-mart parking lot to an ex-girlfriends new boyfriend who tried to kick my but and failed, from fist & palms to knives & guns and even a machete)and i think it depends on the target area fist,elbow,& knees for soft areas and palms (sometimes knee or elbow) for the harder targets like the face, chest, ribs, & outer knee
i have kept to that since my first fight and i have never lost
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My Father has 3 black belts from: Judo, Aikido, Hapkido, and years of
real-world workouts from my GrandFather & all my other relatives, from the
Phillipino Martial Arts. Our family grew up in Hawaii, my Father was in the
Army in WW11, then he was a Sheriff in Hawaii before it became the 50th, in
those days Law & Order was hard to come by, so my Father had to use a street
wise-practical form of self defense to survive. My Father passed along his
skills & knowledge to all of his 5 sons, we entered into Judo at age 6 to
learn how to take a fall and fight on the ground, after 5 years of Judo we then pursued the style we wanted. After high school I signed up to go to Vietnam, followed by the Sheriff’s dept., I had many opportunities for my
skills to be tested. I vote ‘Open Hand’ simply for the fact of versatility
in any given situation to utilize any and all strategies/techniques for a rapidly changing defense/offensive encounter. Open Palm strikes pull back your fingers from battle damage, and are simultaneously available to adapt to any change in your opponent’s movements. I have personally studied 6 different forms of fighting/self defense, and I have learned to not get stuck into a static mindset of ‘every encounter will go like this!’ you have to be ready to instantly counter your opponent. I started training in the Asian Martial Arts
back when ‘only Asians’ were accepted as students. So I never got trapped in the ‘Western stand-up brawls’ mindset depicted in movies & TV.
Fingers are for grasping. Butt of the palm and elbow – take their head off.
There were many good points made in this forum. Both strikes are very affective when used properly. The palm heel is by far less prone to injury, however a closed tight fist, when delivered “properly” is equally effective. The back of the hand must be level with the wrist and forearm and the first two knuckles should be straight or inline with the wrist and forearm. This maximizes the energy delivered and greatly reduces injury to the hand.
Here’s an approach that’s worth exploring. Make your initial preemptive shot a colossal haymaker to his jaw with the aid of some deceptive chicanery. The jaw will yield, unlike a Bowling Ball and it’s likely going to be more than enough to end it. If however things don’t work out and you’re stuck in a symmetrical give and take where hitting his forehead is likely, revert to the palm strike.
Palm is great, and you can do a lot of cheat moves with palm in boxing, but the fist is supreme. The thing is you have to work it all the time. You can do a decent open hand strike and not hurt yourself much with little practice, but a good right cross needs serious practice.
Fist is better, but you need to practice it.
When we train our studets at the costumes we always teach them to use the palm.
The reason is if you have to step back and use your gun ore your stick and you have broken your fingers on for exampel the forhead on the bandit,you will have a hard time drawing your weapon.
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Given the psychological element of violence or any emergency situation. Many people on here have rightly side that your response needs to be automatic as you won’t be thinking too much about techniques when your mind is in emergency mode.
Therefore it makes sense to thoroughly drill whichever one it is you need to use automatically, whether it is the punch, palm strike, edge of hand or whatever. When I was younger I spent a lot of time in both wing chun and boxing, so studying chinjabs and edge of hand has taken me a long time to develop.
No offense to John just kidding around, but he figured out a way to say
“You fight the way you train” in a longer sentence than me and I’m a writer
lol
Rick
This article and the comments are all poorly educated. A fist may risk greater knuckle injury but only if you’re poorly conditioned or striking stupid targets with it. Palm strikes increase the risk of finger locks or other damages to the fingers, they have less reach, they are softer, and most importantly, they spread out the impact over a large area rather than concentrating it on a small point such as the two greater knuckles. Many targets are better to use palm strikes against, such as the skull, both most, including the nose, eyes, sides of the jaw, throat, stomach, groin, and most other important targets are much more effectively struck with a fist. Palm strikes and slaps are a natural reaction but you don’t see them in street fights because they have been proven uneffective except when used by a real master of internal technique (iron palm, cotton palm, etc). Unless your hand is already open (for example from a clinch hold), it’s best to stick primarily with punches for your strikes
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Response By Jeff:
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First of all, while I love to get feedback on blog posts and am ALWAYS open to alternative views (I crave them actually!), I’d prefer it if you (everyone) will give the same respect to others. Starting off your comments with how everyone else is “poorly educated” is not a great way to take part in a conversation. I don’t think you’d start a conversation like that at a cocktail party with people you don’t know. It’s ok to disagree…without being disagreeable.
Let’s put that behind us…
As for some of the reasons stated, when punching, “knuckle damage” is the least of your concerns. In fact, it’s not likely that you’ll seriously damage your knuckles with a punch simply because even hard targets on the body are still covered by flesh and muscle for a little bit of padding. The real concern is the “chain of joints” that include the wrist. It doesn’t matter how practiced you are, you’re hitting a moving target and it’s impossible to know for sure the exact angle you need to strike based upon the angle of your point of impact, to ensure the wrist is locked tight enough to not fold over. It’s simple bio-mechanics.
Also, the strike mentioned in this segment is about palm strikes, not finger strikes which, I would agree, are ineffective.
But I have to disagree with your position of “ineffectiveness” of palm strikes in a real fight. They absolutely do work and have been proven time and time again. I’ve used them in real life and even Bas Rutten has used them against skilled professionals in the ring with incredible devastation. They’re simple to use and will absolutely level a man when struck correctly.
Thank you for your comments and I hope you’ll continue to contribute to the ongoing conversation.
Well shoot fighting, boxing and the UFC rediscovered the purpose of boxing gloves was not to protect the opponents face but to protect the striker’s hands. All of these people are experts and well trained.
I find it amazing that you feel you are the only educated person in this blog
Rick
Hey Jeff,
I have about 3 years Goju Karate training, 5 years Boxing, a highschool wrestling career, 3 years Muay Thai and BJJ, and was a Brown Belt MCMAP instructor while serving as an infantry rifleman in the U.S.M.C. Sorry for being a little late on this post, but I would like to post my theory on the issue based on my experience in styles which required a lot of live action sparring.
It is my personal opinion and experience that in an actual “brawl”, i.e. two or more guys slugging away at each other, open hand strikes are of limited value. I say this because open hand strikes do require a great deal of precision to land effectively. Or rather they seem to be super effective when they land where they need to go, and incredibly ineffective when they miss. In my experience a palm heel uppercut for example only does incredibly substantial damage when it lands dead on the chin or nose, whereas a traditional uppercut does a good amount of damage anywhere below the forehead(some places obviously more than others). Punches seem to have more leeway.
Furthermore open hand strikes require different muscle groups than a closed hand strike, and thus throw off a certain amount of momentum that I want in my combinations, and most open hand strikes telegraph terribly in combos. While I believe a well place open hand strike is a “one hitter quitter” so to speak, I feel aggressive combination punches, hammerfists, elbows, knees, and kicks yield consistently better results, are more instinctive, and have a better flow. They also don’t require the same degree of absolute accuracy to be effective. Something incredibly hard under the influence of an adrenaline dump against a moving, resisting opponent.
That being said, I am not at all an opponent of open hand strikes, quite the opposite in fact. We all know MMA and modern H2H styles are both well rounded in the freestanding, clinch, and ground phases of combat. But I feel that there is a stage that is often neglected in most martial arts, including TMA styles, MMA styles, and to a lesser degree H2H styles. That is the preemptive phase. This is where open hand strikes really shine I feel.
First of all you are probably not experiencing a major adrenaline dump at that moment so your stikes are going to be more accurate and less instinctive. Second of all, the aggressor will not be as active in moving and defending, this will further help the accuracy and completion of technique. Third, “opening” with an well placed open hand strike may end the confrontation without the need for the “brawling” phases due to the effectiveness of a well placed open hand strike. And finally if you are throwing the first strike, though you may actually be right legally, it will look far better to Joe Witness to open with say whats been termed ‘combat slap’(my personal favorite OHS), than a Jab-Cross-Hook-Hammerfist-Thai clinch/double straight knee-Round elbow combo. It should be noted that in most places, legally speaking you are able to throw the first strike should you feel threatened. For example, if an aggressor comes towards you aggressively pointing, and raving about kicking your butt.
Just my two cents, on a side note I do believe hand conditioning and proper punching is very important to not breaking your hand.