Is Your Martial Arts Training BACKWARDS?
I have a problem with “martial arts”.
No, I’m not going to launch into some “anti-martial arts” rant about how it’s ineffective in a real street fight (though I have my opinions).
But the problem I have with most martial arts systems is that they teach their students how to defend themselves completely BACKWARDS!
Let me explain…
If you’ve ever taken a single class in a “martial art”, then you know that your training begins with learning how to get in the perfect stance to strike from…the perfect punching form…blocking…a fancy schmancy takedown…etc.
Eventually you progress to more advanced strikes, kicks, katas, and even more fancy schmancy takedowns. And then finally, if you’re in a very progressive school…you MAY (if you’re darned lucky) get into how to actually AVOID using those techniques. You see…
…A “Fight” Is What Happens When
All Things Have Gone WRONG!
You weren’t able to identify and avoid a bad situation…
…you weren’t able to talk down the 300 lb gorilla snorting in your face because he thought you were checking out his girlfriend
…you let your attacker get too close to you and woke up in a hospital bed
…you let your ego get the best of you and decided to “stand up” for your wife when some guy made a comment
…the list goes on.
I’ve never attended (or even heard of) a self defense program that STARTED by taking you out behind the school to show you how to walk around a corner of a building in a way that doesn’t let a waiting attacker catch you by surprise…
…or how to use your car windows as a mirror to see what’s going on around you while you’re approaching it in a parking lot…
…or how to set aside your ego to talk down the guy at the bar who thought you were looking at his girlfriend.
I’m sure they’re out there. You may even attend one or be that kind of instructor. I’ve just not seen it yet.
The number of potentially dangerous situations are limitless, but learning how to avoid a fight should be the very FIRST thing martial arts instructors teach in their schools.
Not in place of, but rather along side the techniques that can be used should avoidance and de-escalation fail.
You’re kidding, right? You’ve GOT to be kidding. You’re actually IN the self-defence industry and you’re claiming that you’ve NEVER seen a class that teaches avoidance, awareness, and verbal defusion strategies in the first segment of the training? Most of the ones I’ve been involved with, do. Dude, this article baffles me.
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Response From Jeff:
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That’s correct Jesse…I’ve NEVER seen a martial art START with the type of training I described.
“Only fight for self defense…don’t start a fight…blah, blah, blah…” Yes…absolutely these are covered. But we talk about avoidance.
My post was for a “wake up call” to take this type of training beyond “talking” and take students out back of the dojo to walk around a car and show them how to “check it”…meet at a mall parking lot and spot the danger spots…have an instructor waiting around the corner of a building and as you walk the class toward the corner talking, see how many are surprised he’s there.
Creativity can foster a natural “6th sense” of awareness if made more hands on. Just as self defense techniques work best with hands-on practice, so do “avoidance” technique require hands on practice. If the first step is learning how to defend yourself is to avoid crime and an attack in the first place, why not make it the first hands on training sessions that are taught?
I get it…it comes down to business. People don’t sign up for a self defense class purposefully for “avoidance”. They want to know how to kick someone in the balls. Give them what they want…but also give them what they need.
That’s correct Jesse…I’ve NEVER seen a martial art START with the type of training I described.
“Only fight for self defense…don’t start a fight…blah, blah, blah…” Yes…absolutely these are covered. But STARTING with how to walk to your car…walk around a building…asking “where are the danger spots you see right now from where we are?” No.
We talk about avoidance but just as self defense techniques work best with hands-on practice, so do “avoidance” technique require hands on practice. If the first step is learning how to defend yourself is to avoid crime and an attack in the first place, why not make it the first hands on training sessions that are taught?
I get it…it comes down to business. People don’t sign up for a self defense class purposefully for “avoidance”. They want to know how to kick someone in the balls. Give them what they want…but also give them what they need.
First off, I believe that all martial arts schools and self defense schools should make there students understand that self defense is a way of life. Example: You look down on the floor before takeing a step if you have children to ensure you wont step on or trip over a toy that might have been left out. This is a form of self defense. These types of examples can go on for ever.
For street self defense I believe the first thing that should be instilled in a student is self awareness and awareness of your surroundings. Then possible escape routes should be mentally stored. Always carry your person with good posture to exude self confidense but “NOT” cocky. Then I feel proper impact absorbtion and proper falling techniuques should be taught. Proper cover up and strike angles body X motion. The list goes on. What I mentioned in the beginning I feel is the most important to instill in anyone starting out.
You have always been on the money Jeff. Avoid a fight if possible, strike first and hard if necessary. Most street and bar thugs are not skilled fighters.
Accuracy in stance is not crucial to defeating your adversary. I follow and teach that a fight should end in three moves. Train and perfect five moves. Then and only then should one increase and perfect additional moves. 50 moves mean nothing if you don’t excel at any of them.
Most martial arts schools teach style and to compete. I don’t train to compete I train to fight.
Jeff, I do understand exactly where you’re coming from. I do teach my clientale “real-world” techniques and tactics. The training hall, automobile, and parking lot is used for real life scenarios and drills. I teach awareness and hostile recognition skills to all of my clientale. There are very few self-defense or martial arts schools teaching this way. Perhaps, the inclination for those instructors to simply “commercialize” their training centers is based on the fact that most have no experience in real-world combat experience. They even go as far as teaching sports-like techniques for self defense. I haven’t seen any schools, other than mine, teaching people what saves lives. The techniques that work on the street and in night clubs are considered “gross” and violent by general societal standards. I say, F— IT! My clientale pay me for the real deal. Anything less would be unacceptable. As usual Jeff, I love your site and appreciate you for your contributions to all those “lost souls” out there in the real world.
Matial arts can teach a person useful self defense techniques, and the dojo I went to stressed avoiding fights, if possible.I know I’ve used blocks effectively in real fight situations, where someone took a swing at me or aimed a groin kick, and I could see those coming and avoided major injuries.Of course, all those fancy techniques that guys like Jet Li use,most folks would hurt themselves.No, kata don’t win fights, and neither does a lot of what’s taught in dojos because most folks can’t do ‘em quick or vicious enough, or know what to do, the old deer in the headlights scenario.
You are so right Jeff! I have taken a martial arts class. Unfortunately I had to learn to defend myself long before that when I was a little girl when two teenage boys attacked me. I was around 10 yrs old then. I kicked, bit and screamed. They finally gave up and released me. I learned to be very careful and observe all my surroundings especially when I am alone. I stay alert and ready and I avoid the possibility of any kind of confrontation. I admire your way of teaching. Thanks!
The original class I took was semi-traditional, geared toward self-improvement, but self-defense took up part of every class. We’d do some single techniques, one- and three-step sparring, kata, regular sparring, and self-defense techniques. The Sensei regularly discussed potential problems and how to avoid them, and what to do if you couldn’t. We would break down actual fights and analyze them, looking at what went right and wrong. Once you proved you were trustworthy, you learned the right way to strike first if necessary.
I’ve become a bit more eclectic over the years since, and I tend to stress self-defense more, but I will have to say those classes from back in the 70s had value and what we learned did work fairly well in defense.
Jeff, I worked real hard to earn my first black belt. It was in a traditional Japanese style. Long deep stances and perfect strikes, blocks and kicks. My first couple of yrs as an instructor that’s what I taught. Then I got into a style that taught street fighting and defense. The first time I stepped in front of my teacher He said good Karate man but what’s wrong with this picture. I knew what he meant right away about my stance. Long and deep don’t get it on the streets. But don’t get me wrong. There are a lot of things you can use out in the world if use correctly.
Looking up the meaning of the words “martial arts”, it translates as systems of codified practices and traditions of training for combat. So therefore you would feel that someone who attends a martial arts class is there to train in that particular traditional style of combat training, which would have been taught down the generations in strict form, to keep its authenticity and effectiveness. If I`m to be honest every class I`ve attended (including judo, karate, taekwondo and jujitsu) has been very much a case of “join in” and if you like it come back for the next training session(s). That`s not saying that at some point through the latter classes you`re told only defend yourself as a last resort etc, but I do feel that the whole approach to training reflects this anyway. As to its effectiveness I would say it varies very much on what training you are doing, and also very much how long you`ve been training. In my own experience it has helped me in many ways (confidence, never under estiamte your opponent, defence, speed and distance, seeing the most effective and undefended area to strike, hand and feet co-ordination and movement… seeing and avoiding strikes while setting up counters), and then not so much in others (actual effective striking). However knowing this as a weakness I would like to feel I`ve improved this by applying the techniques I`ve learned to break objects (wood etc).
Hi.The first things I learned was the usual talk,walk,run. Then the most important thing was to learn the art of falling down because at that stage of the game that’s where you most likely will spend a lot of time unless you had the training or the balls to punch and kick like crazy.
After mastering this you will feel confident to move on. My way is Jujitsu learned in the military refined on the streets,leaning the close in techniques do to many combat situations, but also the street–think about it most of the time when you fight it’s in a closed area a disco,bar, movie theater etc.
In my view is you are learning things that require a lot of space ( anything more than 1-2 feet away ) your only learning an art,and only an art, and that could cost you everything. But if you have lots of room then go back to square one–talk, walk, run..
I totally agree with Jeff. I think the physical part of a fight is only 10 % of what you need to know. The other 90 % has to do with awareness, avoidance, de-escalation, matching their level of verbal intensity, leaving them an honorable way out, avoiding being too aggressive or passive, setting boundries by creating a verbal and physical “fence”, understanding when to be in code yellow, orange, or red alert, deception, pre-emptive striking, violent intent, fighting dog spirit, and getting the witnesses to see you as the “good guy”
As far as the physical part, that can be handled with palm strikes, knee strikes and elbow strikes. After all, you can become a boxing champion using only 4 moves ( jab,cross,hook,and uppercut.)
My students learned avoidance along with physical skills from beginning to “end”
Rick
As usually , you are correct Mr.Anderson. Most martial arts teach for the sake of arts not actually combat. YES you will learn a real”technique” or two but how long will it take you to get there? Example. The Year 1980.I joined the U.S. Army just to go to South Korea to advance in Tae Kwon Do. At the time I had a 3rd Degree AMERICAN Black Belt. I took me 5 years to achieve. When I walked into my first gym in Korea, I was shocked at all the black Belts. When I questioned these guys, some of them had been there just under 12 months the turn around time of an average GI’s tour there. Most were Black Belts. Some guys were even given 2 degree in just 1 years time. I WAS SO PISSED! All that time and MONEY! Believing the hype. Even the Koreans will not use TKD in a street fight. Why,because Arts does not work under stress. Tell you what, try to look pretty, excuse me “to use art” next time you have a REAL fight and see how long you last. The best thing that happened was, I was introduced to Military Combatives by the KATUSA Special Forces and have not looked backed at martial arts since
KATUSA Special Forces are SOME of the best in the world
Jeff, I have been teaching Jujitsu for 41 years. All my students learn avoidance, along with the skills from day one. I also include real world situational awareness. I do believe that all battles begin in the mind and being aware of your situation. I have had the honor of serving in the U.S. Air Force and Special Forces. My training has saved my life and several of my students. I understand that there are several arts out there that need more to there training, but not all. So I am in agreement with you to some extent.
Totally agree Carl!
I know so many great instructors like yourself and others who have posted on this blog who “get it” and do instill this training into their classes.
My post was for a “wake up call” to take this type of training beyond “talking” and take students out back of the dojo to walk around a car and show them how to “check it”…meet at a mall parking lot and spot the danger spots…have an instructor waiting around the corner of a building and as you walk the class toward the corner talking, see how many are surprised he’s there.
Creativity can foster a natural “6th sense” of awareness if made more hands on.
Thanks for the great post Carl (and others)!
Hey Jeff, You said this at the beginning: “learning how to avoid a fight should be the very FIRST thing martial arts instructors teach in their schools. Not in place of, but rather along side the techniques that can be used should avoidance and de-escalation fail.”
I completely agree. While I do teach on some traditional combatives the majority of what I teach is from real world experience in the security field as far as the physical fight skills.
However I am constantly drilling it that the best way to win a fight is to not get into the fight to begin with. Spatial & Situational awareness are vital to avoiding a fight. I also teach heavily on deflection and redirection rather then the traditional block a 100mph sucker punch that you weren’t expecting.
I’m known in my classes for saying “techniques alone will get you killed…tactics are what keep you alive”.
for my blackbelt in TKD we had to learn in addition to katas, weapons, calisentics, history of Korea,history of martial arts, 100 words of the Korean language, play a Korean song on the bamboo flute, take a hours long written test, pass a physical test on strengh, speed, katas, breaking boards etc. Think much of this is too stretch out the process & make the school & teacher more money. Read a book by a military fight instructor who called most students dojo ballerinas & that really hit home. He said any school that doesn`t teach you to fight & know situational awareness in a few months..run away from it. Better to know a few moves well than hundreds you will never likely use. Tried Jeet Kun Do & found they don`t fool with Katas, calisentics, histories, etc. just practice fighting & take downs, submission holds etc. BTW still looking for the supplement book I bought?
I totally agree with you Jeff, but not entirely. Depending on the school and the teacher. When I first started taking martial arts, i moved from school to school and each one of them cost a crap load of money. And all they taught was everything you’ve said. Take downs, stance, punches, kicks. I noticed that these schools are located in populated areas where the teachers are just focused on making money. It wasn’t until I moved to a more rural area did I meet an instructor that took the time and patience to talk one on one about and show what in “reality” would happen and how the methods he taught could be applied. So not all martial arts schools are “bookworm” schools.
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Martial arts would have worked in feudal Japan when they observed the code of Bushido, a strict code of moral conduct. Out in the streets,the street attacker has no morals, he wants your money to pay for his next fix, and won’t think twice about taking your life in order to get it. I trained in martial arts for many years,I was never taught how to avoid a situation. Some of the instructors were conceited big heads, their techniques on the dojo were brilliant to watch, but the would run a mile if they were challenged to a fight in a bar.
It depends on the school. I grew up in a military family and moved around a bit. In moving around I have attended different schools and worked with students of different styles. My two favorite schools were a Mudeokgwan and a Kyokushin school. They skipped the padding and taught you how to block, move out of the way, or how to take the hit. I personally do not have a “black” belt. I have worked those who boast about being a black belt or have military training on the job and in a gym. I can’t say that I’m overly impressed. Like I stated before, I don’t have a black belt or military training, and a have beaten those who have. I’m not a very big or strong person. I am a bit flexible. One thing I learned in those two schools was that regardless of who or what you are, you can and will inevitably lose. You can say that losing is not an option, but reality is that someone has to lose so the other wins. My father raised me on the philosophy of if you can avoid a fight, do so, but if you can’t, make them regret ever noticing you. All that I have learned and continue to learn is that there is no such thing as a clean or fair fight, you fight to win and that is final. Martial art schools are cost wise, backwards. The cheaper the school, the better training. A teacher who charges a lot of money and trains in no contact is only going to teach you how to look pretty. A teacher who charges a little and believes in contact, has passion for the art and understands the bitter reality of fighting.
First, I try to AVOID being in places where there is a lot of drinking and the potential for a fight is high…BUT, once I was at such a party, and this “Jock” says, ” Are you looking at my girlfriend ?” I said .. ” Yes,…I was just admiring YOUR good taste…It’s like seeing a Lamborgini drive by…(1) I gotta LOOK….but I KNOW I can’t afford one…(2) I gotta respect the guy who can…and does own one… That’s life…some got it…some don’t… but, I can DREAM that some day, I will..” He lost his hostility and says…” Let me buy you a drink “…which I graciously accepted…and turned the conversation, by asking him how he came to be so lucky… we actually became friends…
I don’t believe in fighting but I do believe in survival. I
will do whatever is needed to survive & then only after all
retreat options are exhausted. I have trained in the Martial
Arts since 1977 & know that it does not provide 100% scratch,free,
bruise free, broken bones free, bloody urine free, swollen
free encounters but it’s useful if applied in the proper
enviroment or encounter. Having work as a bouncer in some
one door shacks/clubs my training worked for me. I use the
same formula the bad guy uses A-K0- Ability- Knowledge-
oppurtunity which equates to SURVIVAL. I see fighting as being testosterone/machismo driven while survival is about living
Mel
Jeff,
Thanks for the steady stream of fighting ideas and perspectives. I get a lot out of your articles as well as the comments posted by your knowledgeable readers.
I didnt’ go through all the comments this time so I’m not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but this article reminded me of something Kelly McCann has said: Failing to carry a legal weapon or something that can be used as a weapon is simple negligence.
That struck me as a very practical observation. You might say that one of the unquestioned assumptions in most fighting schools is that you’ll be fighting empty-handed.
When I was younger I trained in Tang Soo Do (Korean) and Kang Chuan Do (Gung Mao Kung Fu). Both taught traditional styles; however, Shihan Joe Gangi (Kang Chuan Do) is an ex army ranger and selected specific night classes where street fighting techniques were explored and rehearsed. Each scenario was modified continually for the student. Such items as what to do if a fight starts while you’re sitting in a chair, at a bar, dancing etc. How to utilize anything near you as a weapon and how to create weapons from magazines, newspapers, keys, etc. Jeff….I think you skipped a groove on this one.
I suppose unless if you went to every martial art school it is very hard to say how many teach avoidance and awareness. I do feel generally though that martial arts have become more testosterone fuelled this last few years in the same way as society has in general. In 1981 I joined a Wado Ryu karate school, and though karate seems to get a lot of stick these days since the emergence of mma, the one thing those classes taught above all else was respect for the sensei, respect for your fellow students, and this respect naturally continued when you left the dojo. If you contrast that to the ethos that exists now, I think a good many martial arts students are likely to be the ones starting the fights nowadays.
Also I would say that even though those same karate lessons could have been improved upon by introducing close combat techniques, even if your karate failed on the street, that sensei pushed you so hard with circuit training and physical conditioning that you probably would have had a certain edge because he got you so fit, whether you were brawling, escaping, scrambling over walls or whatever is required in an emergency.
It would be good to see some of this emphasis return in martial arts. If everyone was taught respect it would be a better world anyway. I feel that many of the Japanese senseis are ahead of us in this. That said, more awareness development is something all martial arts would benefit from
Jeff,
One more thought on the issue of awareness. I’d be interested in polling your readers on whether they think they are as diligent as they ought to be in applying their awareness training–at all times.
To be honest, my own awareness blips on and off. At least once a week I pull myself up short and think: if that guy had wanted to attack me, he could have taken my head off.
Depents becaus if u train a martial arts who consentrate’s on weird unrealistic moves that arent vailable on the street. Since on the streat its all about power and experience and speed.
I think that that comment made is towards the schools or pseudo-schools that do not teach how to avoid or diffuse fights. Some teaches focus in perfecting their students on hitting and blockin, but they focuse less in how to use commun sense. note aside…commun sense doesn’t sell!!!
Jeff
As Miyagi would say to DanielSan- “Best defense no be there”.Sometimes we get so caught up in this or that in the martial arts, combat arts or whatever that we miss the point,K.I.S.S. If a person does not want to get beat up in a bar, club, disco, or places equivalent, then stay away from these places and spend more time with family, church, or other nicer places. It has worked for me. And one more point. Kata. These days “kata” has gotten a bad name because us westerners don’t have a clue how to practice kata, how to teach it, what its purpose is and how to make the stuff work. Ive been practicing Kata for umpteen years the way the old timers did it and it has saved my hindy several times and my students. Bottom line on “kata”, all it is, is a toolbox full of techniques. Thanks Jeff for your time and dedication. BillR
“bar, club, disco, or places equivalent, then stay away from these places” I believe Mr. Miyagi was stating that it was best not to be there when the punch arrived. It had nothing to do with social location. Unfortunately, an assault can happen at the gas pump, parking space, etc. It would be wonderful if the criminal element would confine their activities to dens of inequity. However, in the real world it can happen in any location. Such as a confrontation I had at a Hardee’s drive thru. I defused the situation without using force or loosing face. The man was a bully that didn’t expect the person he was screaming at to get out and walk back to him. Had I not just got off of the cell phone from having a fight with what is now my X-wife, I probably would have ignored him. As it was, I was looking for someone to vent on.
Don’t misquote Mr. Miyagi.
Traditional training includes the proper understanding of combat. That includes situational awareness. Mental training in developing the combat computer that helps identify and work through situations before they occur. Recognizing dangers as they start to evolve and prepare for the best response before situations ignite.
The training today in many schools have been forced into transitions toward sports like training due to social and political pressures that we have allowed to affect the training that exists today. The original training had more purposeful meaning and addressed the sort of training Jeff is talking about.
Very few people can offer real training programs and expect to keep students in todays climate. Many cannot get those that need the training to pay the money to stay afloat. Where this sort of training should be a public service. Those of us that want to teach realistic combative training will not keep the students that have money in the program as it is too severe. Those that need it the most can’t afford it. Running kids and sports programs get regular customers. Realistic pressures make it very hard to offer what is needed. Almost every one of my students in adult self defense programs I have had were victims. They were not willing to see the need for the training until after they had been victimized.
Kata are the footnotes of a style. A method to pass down the basic information to future generations. Then the instruction should break down that training into realistic combative scenarios. Go into variations of technique. Detail is in practice not in kata. Kata is the encyclopedic reference a valuable asset but not combat practice.
There is a belief out there that traditional arts do not hold the key. I know that to be a false assumption. I have 30 years in the arts. Taught hand to hand to special operations forces. I have black belts in 2 systems of the many that i study. Traditional arts hold many keys but the original styles information of training has to be unlocked and practiced.
I can guarantee that there is less than 1 in a 100 willing to go through the iron body training I have gone through. But this is the part of the issue many want a “Trick” a magic bullet. Few are willing to train. Seriously train. Then when they go look for training they get a bunch of ego soup rather than realistic information. We should all be spending more time learning from each other than pointing out what we think does or does not work to boost superinflated egos.
Keep a look out my books will be coming eventually.
-Sincerely
Larry Clements
Owner Instructor Phoenix Eye Dragon Claw Dojo
the deep stances in most systems were for leg strengthening, not as a basis for a real fight. Many systems mi-interpret the practical applications of a kata as being the way it should be step by step and that’s not the case as most fights don’t end up like a kata. Some schools really need to look at what they teach and how it would respond to a real world situation. But some schools, without being a “RBSD” school still have real world merit. Like Ryu Te.
Numbers 33, and 34, you two do have your Poop in a group. You guys said it much better than I could of said it. Number 32 you are right, but you also misunderstood what I wrote. My fault, I should have made my point more clearer. Since this is not a perfect world, you may be attacked in a church, like the abortion Dr. Tiller did here in Wichita Ks when he was shot to death this year, you may be attacked in front of a court house in small town America like what happened to my wife and I. But if you had to make $1000 bet, what would I bet on being attacked first, at a bikers bar or The Yall Come Back Baptist church. Statistics says it all, church is a little safer. We can prevent 90% attacks by simply ” best defense no be there” but of course trouble can find you anywhere. Ive been training in Okinawan Old system martial arts (oops martial arts is a bad word) I mean Old Okinawan fighting system for 23 years and the masters say best defense no be there like Miyagi says. It also means when trouble does find you stay legs length away from the ” bad guy” to give you time to react, and of course we do not always have that luxury so we must attack while being attcked. Thanks for have given me your time Sgt Mac.
A Black Belt is not a bullet-proof vest. If you’re practicing your kata, you’re not out drinking somewhere next to trouble. Unless you’re looking for it, you may not know you’re in a fight untill the other guy has already started it. Personally I don’t go to bars to fight, I go to drink & chase skirt. Don’t be part of the problem. Don’t assume that you’re going to teach this guy a lesson. Be secure enough in yourself to apologize if you’re wrong or not. If some guy’s “venting” on you, what I do is what we used to call “praying hands”. To the casual observer it appears that you’re pleading with him. This accomplishes several things. First it gets your hands up in front of your face in a non-threatening position. He gets his ego stroked while you get yourself into position. Any witnesses will assume that you don’t want a fight. It also presents him with an opportunity to walk away with his ego intact. It’s also good body language if the place is too loud for anybody to hear anything. What would you assume if you saw this? The guy who takes a swing at someone in this position is an ignorant bully. You should practice backing up to a wall without looking behind you in this position. When your rear foot comes into contact with a wall, swing it 90 degrees one way or the other. If/when he telegraphs a swing go in with a chin-lift or thumbs to the eyes. If you can step on a foot and push him into his friends, that’s a good one too. A two-handed shove to the diaphragm will take his wind without killing him. Jeff’s CD on how to fight a larger opponent has some great advice on how to recognize when it’s going to happen. If that isn’t enough, there might be Police, hospital, &/or jail. Most bars have hard floors that will mess a dude up if he bounces his skull off of it regardless of his training.
If you get a chance, look up a guy named Greg Frazier from the San Diego area. He has some great non-lethal standing submission locks that are fantastic. This chin-na is the type of thing that I have used personally and can tell you it’s very effective. It’s also the type of thing that I would want someone to use on me if I was the ignorant ass. If you’re going to teach me a lesson, I’d rather you do it without without any real damage to life or limb.
I hope your today is OK,
Dan
The answer to the question, are martial arts backwards, is yes. What is the primary threat? Statistics suggest that the most common angle of attack is a looping overhand from the opponent’s right hand, probably with an impact weapon of some type. If your mindset is defensive, then that should be your first responsive rehearsal.
That #33 guy is good too. Some martial relationships are traditionally abusive. Is a drill instructor your best friend, or your worst enemy?
Most of these traditional arts have religious or political or ethnic roots. Many of them are born from war. Why should they give, or sell you the best techniques that they have? That’s why they put you through the time to see if you’ll be true to them. After enough time, you’ll see things their way.
Many moon ago I had the honor of personal instruction from Jung Shee Jim Lacy. Amongst other things this guy could do either side of their family Tai Chi Chuan two man form backwards. Now that’s knowing a form. The Bok fu Pai family had everything that a traditional art was. Coconut breaking, staff forms, Flute forms, (imagine whipping your flute around as a short staff.), herbology, you name it. To this day I still practice a lot of their techniques, and employ some of their impact conditioning tools. Did they teach me everything they know? I doubt it. Maybe they shouldn’t have. But what they did have was everything that an ancient Ming Dynasty martial tradition should have had. Special thanks to Jung Shee Doo Wai.
Some of the things that were not on the menu were gun disarms. There probably wasn’t a lot of that going on in 1644. Some of the newer arts address this. Jim Wagner has it going on!
Are martial arts backwards? Most of them start with the empty hand and progress form stick/sword to spear/projectile weapons. Current military starts with rifle, and then goes to pistol/knife, or SAW/RPG ect. I’m not sure what your kata could do with that. Mostly it’s this, train most often for the greatest probability with what you can afford. At this point without telling you too much, what I would use is a bad mix of Kali with WWII Combatives & a little Commando Krav-Maga. Systema is great, and if get the chance any of the artists that I’ve seen from Mr. Anderson’s modules will steer you in the right direction.
Should time/money allow, I think Mr. Larkin’s TFT might be my next dip. I’m familiar with him from Jerry Peterson’s “Hostile Control” package. I’ll tell you what, if you use that, it doesn’t matter what the other guy knows.
There was another home invasion in PB two nights ago.Four men with guns. If you hear a knock at your door and you’re not expecting anyone, don’t just throw open your door with a smile on your face. There was a stabbing at a house party in Lakeside last night. It’s too bad but this is an adult reality right now.
Get some training but don’t pay to take abuse.
Thanks, I’ve got to go,
Dan
Jeff I know exactly where you’re coming from.
It’s very frustrating when people come in and I have to help them “unlearn” so many things.
There is so much BS being taught out there today it is shocking. What I have to do as a coach is get them based in reality versus mystic nonsense and techniques that only live in the gym and not in the streets.
It’s about real world self protection/preservation not how many colored tips you have on your belt or how many trophies you’ve won.
the truth is – there is a wide gap between these martial arts class theory and realtime fight where there is no rules.M I right?????
Man all i can say it doesnt matter how much martial arts you know or how much street fighting skills you have… only thing it boils down to is the fighter himself and will….. to win.. but really i think a unorthodox Mixed Martial Art an lil street fight style is the most well rounded fighter to me.. were there is not perfect form but inertia will to us and opponents motion on him…
I am convinced that many, many students who pay money at martial arts studios are or would be unable to fend off a truly vicious attacker. Many of your comments here seem very intelligent. But the main thing I notice is this……..seems like most of you have been in alot of fights in your adult years. Why is this? If you are soldiers or law enforcement or security people, I understand. But I am betting alot of you get into bar fights. I have not been in a fight since 4th grade! I did study aikido for about 5 years with a wonderful Japanese sensei. He said he was teaching us “how not to fight”. I think he did. I do not feel, many years later now, that I am ready to spar with anyone necessarily, nor kick someone’s ass. But I have successfully somehow avoided trouble. I think the best way to avoid fights is not to hang around drinking in bars. I quit drinking many years ago, and have never looked back. Thanks to you all for your comments, however. I think you make alot of sense about what would work in hand to hand combat, once you are in a situation. If I started training again now, I would go straight to combatives!
Jeff, i couldnt have said it better. I totally agree with you. I have a friend right now who fits this exact martial arts profile. I spent almost four years in 2nd recon battalion-force 2, USMC, we were taught avoidance obiously as this will save your life, but also lethal and devastating attacks. I know martial arts, i spent six years taking karate and takwando. I did learn avoidance but the problem was if i couldnt i still was not learning relevant techniques. My friend takes shoran ryu, think i spelled that right, this is a devastating style, yet when we talk if he were to ever have to engage, he would be dead or seriously hurt, im gettin off point, but i do agree that most dojos do not teach relevant things as well as avoidance.
Dear Jeff,
I symathize with what you wrote when it comes to certain moves in certain martial arts being impractical. There are many moves that Martial Arts Gyms should teach to help people defend themselves in the streets. However, your word choice makes it seem that someone who studies martial arts has no chance in a street fight.
I have been doing Mixed Martial Arts since I was 8 years old. I have done Karate, High School/Collegiate Wrestling, Kung Fu with SanDa/Wushu(Chinese Kickboxing), Muy Thai Kickboxing, and some Brazilian JuJitsu. Martial Arts is not just Karate and Tae Kwon Do. Anything from Boxing to Wrestling to Krav Maga are all considered Martial Arts.
You may see it as just a sport but there are MANY moves in Mixed Martial Arts that could easily work in the street. If I saw a MMA fighter and someone who doesn’t know ANY Martial Arts fight in the streets. I would bet the MMA fighter would win EVERY TIME!
Respectfully,
Ashkaun
The best combat mindset I learned many years ago: I am the weapon, everything else is just hardware. Martial arts are more akin to software, but alas, like Windows operatig systems they can crash when you need them most. Or in the middle of a fight. Avoidance is best, three rounds center mass is the ultimate solution, but not always legally practical. Overall, find a GENUINE Krav Maga school. Not one of the many “chain” dojos that havr poped up around the country. Until the make your mind the weapon, and do not hesitate when the time comes.
Love this philosophy Ian!
Great comments…and thanks for sharing!
Hey Jeff, I do agree with you and some schools do teach that you should aviod trouble. lol the part about useing tyhe car windows is a good. I have been useing that for a long time and it does work to be able to see behind you. The TKD school that I was going to in Idaho did teach you to aviod a fight and what to do “IF” you have to fight. Like going aginest a knife or a club and exc. . Other wise the martial arts schools should teach the things that a person should know.
Well to say you have a problem with martial arts is a little self-defeating. Nearly every type of combat system in the world developed from traditional fighting styles. And many traditional styles were implemented by their respective countries for sue in security, military and police combat. Korea for example has used both Taekwondo and Hapkido to devastating results for their private security and military forces.
I believe part of the problem is the emergence of McDojos: Martial art schools that charge ridiculous prices and guarantee a black belt in X amount of years. We’ve all seen them “Hey, join my school and for only 2,222 dollars you’ll get a black belt in 3 years”. Sadly yes, many schools have fallen victim to the rising trend of teaching martial arts solely to make a buck or to teach an after school club.
While some schools are backwards yes I would argue that the vast majority still teach practical and effective martial arts techniques.
The Joker brings up an excellent point, which opens the door to another common dojo con-game. Many times, promotions are handed out, not on merit or even time in grade, but as bribes for joining another system or martial arts organization. If you’re an instructor bringing your dojo along with you into the new system/organization, you usually get a one-three rank promotion after nothing more than a weekend seminar or a ceremonial “test,” if they even bother to do that. I’ve been involved in the arts since the early 70s, and I’ve seen it happen many times.
Another point I’m curious about. You’ve said you have never seen a school which teaches some of the things you mentioned. Well, I could easily counter by saying “I’ve never seen a dojo/dojang that had instructors at the grandmaster level.” Does that mean there are none? So it’s a bit of a moot point to make.
There are thousands upon thousands of martial art schools and academy’s out there. Are some phony? Most definitely just as some sporting, music or art schools are no doubt phony. It goes back to the character and quality of the instructor. Is he/she interested solely in profit and fame at the expense of practical and worthy martial art teaching and development?
To judge all schools based on your finite experiences isn’t accurate or fair. I could also counter your claims by naming at least five different schools that teach practical self defense skills but that wouldn’t establish a point.
I was numbers 30 and 34. I want to correct my mistake, it was numbers 32 and 33 I was commenting on, not #34 (oops). Their are about a million and one ways the bad guy can attack you and its probably impossible to go out into the streets, bedrooms, clubs and so on and rehearse what to do due to time money lack of interest and so on. Again I am going to concentrate on the nonsport old traditional fighting kata that consist of nonpoliticaly correct methods and down right nasty offensive moves. True kata teaches not to defend but to offend before or during an attack. And true kata was not developed in the “dojo” but through many years from battle ground experience collectively brought into the dojo so we dont have to go on the streets and prove these things. But there is a catch. Like Miyagi (and the masters) would say “mo pactice”. Today we see all these Rex Kwon Do schools poping up that will teach you to be an MMA fighter in 3 months for $300.00. In our microwave society we want it real fast quick and in a hurry and yesterday. Sorry but us humans are not created that way, we forget at least 90% of what we are taught so it takes a life time to learn not 3 months. Practice kata PROPERLY and when attacted a person will be able to terminate the bad guys like many women and children have done with the use of these techniques. You know, us teachers cut down other schools methods of teaching “Im better, you suck” blah blah blah. We need to teach “the greatest warrior wins by defeating himself first”. Them 350 lb big dudes with clubs and knives coming after my scrawny white butt are not the problem, its me that that is my biggest worry. This is one of many things long term kata can teach. But Bill, it takes to long to do that kata crap. You know its funny, we never have time to do things right the first time but always find the time to do it right the second time.
I agree with Bill R. and many of you. like Bill said in his earlier memo…”K.I.S.S.” “Keep It Simple Stupid”…Many schools try to make things so complicated like when they try to explain the Bonkai (hidden techniques/meanings) of the kata or forms….”When you do this in the kata you are doing this and this and this in real life blah blah blah.” When really you may just be simply grabbing the attacker’s wrist and throwing him to the side so you can run away. The old masters had the true key when they created the kata…They knew what they were doing as their lives were plagued with life and death battles everyday. They knew what the techniques truelly meant…Now it is possible to know 20-30 kata by the time you get your black belt, and still you know nothing…In the old days the masters were lucky to know a handful of kata and would study just one kata for years before learning another…They not only knew the kata’s techniques, they knew the kata’s soul…Also Bill R. got me started on this M.M.A. biz…The term “M.M.A.” is like “Karate”. Karate is a new name but old concept…”Karate” is a Western name given in the early 1900′s but it was originally called “Tode” or “Okinawate.” You know M.M.A. is a new name but a centuries old concept as well?…It is a term given by us Westerners to someone who studies multiple styles and integrates them into their own style…Well that means just about every style in the world is a Mixed Martial Art…Look at Shaolin, they teach several animal styles among other things…Ninjutsu, they teach many styles in one…Shorinryu Karate, it teaches karate, kobujutsu weaponry, jujitsu, control techniques and much much more…Fact of the matter is people believe that “more is better” and M.M.A. means “more”…But more is sometimes worse…”K.I.S.S.”….Another thing to remember, just because you can fight, doesn’t mean you have to…You know there is an old Grandmaster from the 1700′s who was challenged to a fight by 2 men he could have easily beat. He agreed to get on a boat and fight on an Island. But as the boat was leaving for the Island he jumped off leaving the 2 bullies alone on the boat and the Master went on his merry way never to see the 2 again…
I agree with you on the whole K.I.S.S. principle. But Mixed Martial Artists use the simplest and most effective moves from different Martial Arts.
I agree that fighting is not the answer to solve problems.
All I am saying is that Mixed Martial Arts is very effective. I would give a person who has trained in Multiple Martial Arts the edge over someone who has trained in maybe one Martial Art or no Martial Art/Self Defense system.
Now that I vented about M.M.A. and all I will comment on Jeff’s comment #49…I do agree that there are many schools out there that teach just for profit or the prestige of plastic trophies; but there are many schools out there that also teach how to survive at life, moreover life and death situations…I have been to schools that do “what if” scenarios…What if you were in this situation and they teach and do the scenarios often…But there are others I have been to that just do the “what ifs” after something happens in real life, like the college shootings earlier this year…They taught what could have the students done? What kind of weapons did they have in the classes, etc? It is sad that at times it takes a tragic event to get Instructors and the general public interested in learning real and effective self defense…Jeff I hear where you are comeing from you need to train 24/7 because if you don’t use it you loose it…So you need to train all the time so if you are faced in a situation you will not have to think you will just react. There are many “World Champion” martial artists who unfortunately have been in a sticky situation, and yet, dispite their training they froze because their training was in a ring where there were rules…There are no rules in the street!!!…I am sure you have all heard the, “blah blah blah so many dollars, blah blah blah priceless,” commercials?…Well I say, “The cost to be a World Champion Martial Artist,THOUSANDS…The cost to be able to defend yourself and others in a life and death situation, PRICELESS.”